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All posts created by Bob

Bob
Clearly we've oversold the griefing-reduction aspect of support. Support has far more important roles in motivating settlements to upgrade (and stay upgraded), and in motivating players to join existing settlements. Multiple systems have been designed and implemented based on using support as that motivation, and replacing it would be a daunting task. However, fiddling around the edges and tuning the balance so that it's meaningful enough to provide those motivations while still moderate enough to keep upgraded settlements from being too powerful is mostly a matter of editing numbers in spreadsheets or making small code tweaks.
Bob
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

The costs I posted do allow for one-outpost setups that allow the use of secondary or tertiary resource of the hex.

It's difficult to balance for one-outpost setups with the current production model without making the second outpost overly advantageous. That's because currently the second outpost is just as productive as the first one, while the holding upkeep is the same whether you have one or two outposts. There are other changes we could make that would help with that, in particular calculating effort based in part on character contributions instead of just giving each outpost a default effort level, but those will take time to get to. For now, the best I can do is fiddle with the numbers to make the initial outpost usually enough to be self-sufficient, but not making the more typical two-outpost setup overly productive.

My general thinking on it is that for now you are generally better off adding a second outpost before claiming additional hexes or upgrading the hex. The second outpost doesn't add to your upkeep cost, uses less influence than building another holding or upgrading the holding and first outpost, and likely increases overall production even if applied to secondary (or semi-abundant tertiary) resources more than upgrading the single-outpost hex would. There might be exceptions where you have access to multiple hexes with different primary resources, so claiming each one with a single outpost might give you a better combination of mixed output and territorial footprint. At least you'll wind up with a variety of resources in such a case, and in those cases you're well-positioned to ramp up production as soon as you can start placing second outposts that also target the same primary resources.
Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
@ Bob

Trying to understand(and help everyone understand) the philosophy a bit better. Not trying to provoke.

So basically, it seems like the GW outlook on tip top skills is that they are a privilege. Rather than an assured end game "attainment" they are supposed to be something that takes maintenance to get and keep.

Is that about right?

In general, new feats (and particularly higher ranks of feats) require various things in order to take full advantage of them. Many feats require matching equipment with matching keywords to get any real improvement from them. Some will only do you much good when facing certain kinds of opponents.

Support is meant to feel much the same way for feats (and ranks) beyond those available in NPC towns. They're supposed to be specialized abilities and taking advantage of them is supposed to require specialized backing.

The original design for support provided no backing at all for ranks beyond your support level. However, it became clear that feels too much like being told that you "forgot" the feat/rank entirely. It also feels too much like your trained ranks aren't really yours, they belong to whoever's providing your support.

Essentially, the original design said that you can't take any advantage at all of a feat/rank you don't have support for. What we're moving toward is saying that you can't take full advantage of such a feat. This new version of support is a first step in that direction. We're very specific about telling you what rank you've learned to, what rank you're supported to, and what rank is therefore active. Any new feat you learn will remain active regardless of support. One rank beyond your support will also always remain active, and learning additional ranks will usually do a mix of raising your active rank at any given support level and/or lowering the level of support required to keep any given rank active. In other words, you generally do get an advantage out of learning feats/ranks beyond your support level, just not as much of an advantage as someone who actually has support.

Again, this is just a first step in this direction. We implemented it now both because several systems that are already in really need some kind of support to feel remotely balanced, and because it was very easy to implement. Other ideas, such as providing other ways to obtain support, take a lot more work and will need to wait. None of them will guarantee that every player gets to take full advantage of everything they've learned, but we'll keep moving toward providing more opportunities to do so in a balanced way, and toward making the lack of support feel less like forgetting/losing your ranks.
Bob
Edam
Will your holding trainers provide some support if your company is not currently attached to a settlement?

Not for the moment. It's one of the possibilities for alternative support that we discussed, but for now we want to focus on getting the support from settlements feeling right.
Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
@ Bob

Why not a coin sink? Train(wherever you are not blacklisted) and pay a maintenance fee of coin (or even Faction participation<–read Faction chore/quests) to keep skills up. Or something along those line. Here is a tough option to NOT BELONG if you really want Lone Wolf play.

We're thinking about adding additional ways to obtain support along those lines. None of them quite made it onto the roadmap.
Bob
The settlement level system for handling support was originally implemented as a placeholder for a much more complicated support system where support for each skill came directly from each individual settlement structure. When we implement upgrades for settlement structures in EE 15 (November), we'll revisit that plan because you'll start paying upkeep for the structures at that point, which would also overlap with the settlement level upkeep that was simply meant to imitate the structure upkeep. We still want to involve the structures in the support calculations (because support is a major part of why upgrading structures and paying higher upkeep is worthwhile), we just want to fiddle with the plan to make it easier to provide more across-the-board support so that friends can all be part of the same settlement regardless of their chosen role. We've tossed around some ideas, and we're certain we can come up with a final plan that hits the right balance, but it's going to be a long conversation and we don't want to get bogged down in it until we're much closer to implementation. Better to focus on getting the right balance for the system that goes live with EE 12, since that's what everyone will be working with until then.
Bob
Paddy Fitzpatrick
So what are the influence costs of having 8 +5 holdings and assuming with 16 +5 outposts?

It's basically 700 influence per hex at +5, so 5600. Of course, that's the least influence-efficient method. Costing only 200 influence per hex and requiring 19 hexes, you only need 3800 influence at +0. On the other hand, the more hexes you need to control, the more trouble you're going to have making sure all of them have at least one resource at 800, so you may need a few more hexes to balance that out.
Bob
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Ok so those numbers are for level 20, so how about for like, level 16 and 18 settlements?

By comparison, upkeep for level 16 is about 30% of the upkeep for level 20, so you'd only need about 30% of the hex numbers listed. Level 18 is more like 60% and even level 19 is a bit under 80%. Running at 19 would be pretty tempting from a purely support perspective, since it's significantly cheaper and all but a limited number of feats would round up to the same rank as they would with level 20 support. Level 18 has similar advantages, but would still be a noticeable hit for any of your level 20 crafters, who would also be getting hit by the lower facility ratings.
Bob
Bob
Midnight
If they no longer belong to a settlement they now only have suport to level 8. At that point your trainers are of no more use than Thornkeep trainers.

We're actually looking at letting you train beyond your support level, since this new support system will let you at least partially take advantage of such training. Given this particular way of gaming the system, I'm thinking about adding a surcharge to the coin costs in such cases. If your settlement's not supporting your use of that feat rank, then clearly they're not supporting your training either, so the trainer has to work that much harder.

Of course, your crafting will be worse and your ability to defend yourself will be worse while in town, so lack of support could still be a significant issue.
Bob
Midnight
If they no longer belong to a settlement they now only have suport to level 8. At that point your trainers are of no more use than Thornkeep trainers.

We're actually looking at letting you train beyond your support level, since this new support system will let you at least partially take advantage of such training. Given this particular way of gaming the system, I'm thinking about adding a surcharge to the coin costs in such cases. If your settlement's not supporting your use of that feat rank, then clearly they're not supporting your training either, so the trainer has to work that much harder.