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All posts created by Seraph

Seraph
Requiring ammunition doesn't seem very fun to me. It just adds another resource to keep track of and produce – it'd be a minor nuisance to characters part of well-equipped settlements and a major nuisance to characters that aren't. At worst, it can keep you from fighting with certain weapons or fighting period. But that's not what this thread is about, especially since right now attacks are balanced on the assumption that ammo doesn't exist and we can't really speculate on how that might change if ammo were introduced.

I had trouble following Decius' question about the Arcane Trickster. I think it's reasonable that if they introduced Arcane Trickster energy damage attacks with light weapons that they might require a special role feature and some intelligence investment – however, I'd advocate the intelligence investment not become excessive, much like I'm advocating for the strength requirement of Clerics. Needing around 14 or 15 Strength to get T3 proficiency and level 6 Sanctified attacks in addition to needing 20 Wisdom seems balanced to me, so having similar levels of Intelligence/Dexterity for an Arcane Trickster seems perfectly fair.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Oops, double post.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Sanctified Longswords and Greatswords would need 2 new keywords to do that and the others would need 1 or 0.

Longswords currently stand in for the favored weapons of Iomedae (Longsword) and Sarenrae (Scimitar). Greatswords currently stand in for the favored weapons of Gorum (Greatsword) and Lamashtu (Falchion).

This is a little bit awkward, but shouldn't break anything.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Bringslite
Duffy Swiftshadow
Off the top of my head it's only Sanctified attacks, but I'll double check after work. There is some idiosyncrasies in the Armor stuff too but most of those do not require raising 2 stats to the same high score, one is clearly secondary and at a lower requirement.

If that pans out as TRUE, can you do a guestimate? Is a cleric without ANY sanctified weapon training on a competitive par with other roles? Does it (without S weapons) have as many options as any other roles?

It's a tough question to answer whether they're a competitive par with other roles. There are some fine focus attacks, and I know at least one cleric who effectively uses just the focus. But they definitely don't have as many options as other classes, since the focus is the ONLY weapon that uses wisdom. Strength, dex, and intelligence have more than one option. The other outlier is Constitution, which has shield attacks only and requires 20 con for T3 shield proficiency. There are no combat roles that grant constitution, which makes shields basically unused.

It's probably fair to say that using a shield is in an even worse situation than using sanctified attacks.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Nice find. I guess the question is, can there be a stop-gap measure to give clerics access to that keyword until enchanting is implemented, such as with Jokken's suggestion?

Or just change the keyword progression on the attacks for the time being to use the regular sanctified progression for their weapon?

It would be nice to be able to use rank 5 versions of what usually end up being our signature attacks.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
The Eternal Balance
Things are fair and balanced as is. Cleric is OverPowered in other ways, so what it needs two high stats?

Cleric isn't overpowered, not now. I could see the argument when minor cure was healing 20%. But sanctified attacks are balanced with fighter attacks. Clerics are trading out the powerful combat-oriented features that fighters get which increase their attack and damage for a better variety of expendables and the ability to do some elemental damage with their attacks.

Certainly not imbalanced enough to make it take twice as long for them to get to T3 attacks.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Yeah, I was starting to wonder about how this will go as well.

Some people think the deity weapons (like falchion, trident, starknife, scimitar, etc) will have a different keyword progression that matches the deity attacks, and might even provide that specific deity keyword. The problem with that is if it replaces one of the other keywords, you now no longer match all the keywords on the other sanctified and fighter attacks.

I thought for a while that it would be through enchanting that you get that last keyword. I could see the "Fire" keyword on Dawnflower's Caress being matched by a weapon with the "flaming" enchantment. I think they still could possibly go this way. The Fire keyword could still do its regular thing – like adding extra fire damage to attacks when matched with a "Magic Item" feat. But for Clerics of Sarenrae they'd also match it on their Sarenrae attacks.

But I think the idea I like the best, in the short term, is like what you suggested. Just add the deity weapons as clones of their analogues and provide the deity keyword on sanctified weapons of that type just on the base weapon. That way, I would match all the keywords on rank 5 Dawnflower's Caress with a T2+3 Scimitar, just like everyone else does with their attacks.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Takasi
You didn't need to get to 11 Con as quickly as possible, you chose to. There are multiple ways to do it, including hit points, recovery bonus, fortitude and shield attacks.

The point I was trying to make is – if I'm never going to slot the stuff anyway, why does it matter which feats I take to meet gates? It makes the most sense just to get it as fast as you can, since being able to use greater tokens did make an immediate impact on my gameplay experience. Constitution was probably not the right way to make the illustration since it has so many passive upgrades, but Strength is not the same way. It has attacks, crafting, and feature feats. Maybe someday it will have Soldier again.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Takasi
Sereph you are more than what you slot. You are also what you purchase.

I don't see it that way. Things I purchase and never slot have no bearing on how my character performs in any situation – they only exist to meet gates. A couple months ago I decided I needed to get to 11 Constitution as quickly as possible to use greater tokens and T2 potions. I did it with only 5 days of XP, but to do so I ended up taking 1-3 levels of bulwark, bravery, great fortitude, tanner, and a few shield attacks. It's an eclectic mix of feats I'll never use, and they in no way reflect the direction I want to take the character.

Now we're talking about doing the same thing for 6 months to use a better sword. Maybe it's not the 20 Strength requirement that bugs me so much as the fact that I can't use anything that I buy in combat without making me worse at something I can already do. Maybe I just need more feat options and more slots to stick them in.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Seraph
Mistwalker
I would like to point out that if someone plans on taking their crusader all the way to level 14, please note that the requirement is Wis 30 and Str 20. You are going to have to get your strength up to 20 anyways, in the long run. Does it matter if you do it now or next year? You are still going to have to do it.

This is the first really good point I've seen. There's no doubt that, if the game survives and I continue playing for long enough, Seraph will end up with 20 Strength. Due to how long it will take the crafters to make an Avenger's Longsword, this may be fairly moot in my specific case. However, availability will not always be a limiting factor on when people can get gear. And every class will eventually need their secondary stat for their armor that high, but most will not need it there to get the base proficiency with T3 attacks, expendables, and armor.

Also, it seems like a straight up error that level 6 sanctified attacks are available at strength 18 but the proficiency to use them is at strength 20. At the very least, this needs to be addressed.

Takasi, I wanted to address a couple questions you brought up earlier.

You asked if I would be okay with them changing the requirements right now, even with my current level of strength investment. The answer is yes, I need the strength for my armor feat anyway. Right now I have less than 14 strength.

You also asked why this discussion hasn't taken place before this. When I joined, I did not immediately start planning for T3, I didn't even know what it was. I decided to play a Cleric of Sarenrae based on a tabletop character that I enjoyed. It was immediately clear that as a Cleric of Sarenrae I would have access to special Sarenrae attacks that would eventually use her favored weapon, the scimitar. I didn't start looking ahead to T3 attacks until recently and noticed this discrepancy. I think my experience is probably similar to how a lot of players will be. Only now that I realize that T3 is only a couple months away for me did I turn my full attention to the requirements for my attacks.

There was a discussion about whether it was okay for things to be more powerful if they cost more XP. I would say no – otherwise, in 4 years (if all goes well) everyone will either need to be a Cleric or be weaker than a Cleric. Gear availability and higher gates are not permanent ways to effect class balance. Furthermore, if the sanctified attacks were made more powerful (as much as I would enjoy the power boost), it would give a substantial edge to T2 clerics over T2 members of other classes, where the gates aren't so bad as T3.

There was a discussion about whether classes should even be a part of this discussion. I think they have to be, since the deity attacks require domains and the domains require cleric level achievements, and the cleric level achievements cost a significant amount of XP to get (much more than fighter levels). This is also why I reject this idea that using sanctified attacks makes you a fighter/cleric hybrid, since you don't need to slot any fighter feats. The tabletop character I based this one off of used heavy armor and fought in melee with a shortspear and shield, and didn't have any fighter investment – he used buffs to match the fighter. I think it would be cool if we could actually slot two role features and make choices like whether I want to slot a fighter and a cleric feature, or slot both of my deity's domains. But that's a different discussion.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven