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All posts created by koroshiya

koroshiya
I've heard this mentioned in game, but wanted to post here to make sure you guys know about it.

I'm not sure how to reproduce it, but sometimes there are no skills/abilities to train (under all tabs at a trainer) at every trainer I visit. If I close and reopen the game, the issue seems to be resolved, and I can see all of the things I can train again.

Not that huge of a deal, just a minor annoyance.
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
I just had an interesting thought, what if once you reach a level 20 rogue, you can then choose to further upgrade different "skill trees" so for a rogue, you could chose to invest in a stealth tree which upgrades your stealth even further, a poison tree which buffs whatever poison stuff that gets added later, a trap tree which buffs trap setting/disarming etc. That way even if I'm a rogue and meet a wizard on the battlefield, I can specialize in stealth and they may or may not be specialized in perceive. This gives them the option of countering it but they have to weigh the benefit of upgrading one of their trees more over perceive.

If this is no good, maybe allow us to equip a title on our character once we reach a level 20 skill to buff certain aspects, and of course only one title may be used at any given time. So maybe a stealth title is given, that if equipped, could increase the stealth another 150 or something like that.

Either of these suggestions would incentivize getting to max level and specializing in a certain skill (making each character even more unique), rather than just getting to lvl ~13 and training something else, especially if there isn't a drastic difference between lvl 13 and lvl 20 - why spend the extra gobs of xp?
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
Tyncale
If it only requires a minor investment in Perception to offset a 300 Stealth Rogue then it needs tweaking.

I want hard numbers(in yards please)! smile

You hit the nail right on the head with that. I agree that perception should counter stealth, but a 2 year old character with max rogue and max stealth should be able to get pretty close going undetected to an opponent that has half the perception. Maybe make it exponential returns instead of diminishing (or scale the same with xp cost)? That way really only people geared and skilled specifically to perceive stealth can perceive them, whereas a regular player will not have that focused of a counter.

As time goes on, I'm definitely going to map out in meters the various distances for different stealth vs perception. As an aside, personally I don't care about not making my character completely invisible as there are enough bushes, trees, and terrain features to hide in while stealthed (shielded from character icon being displayed on other players' map).

Will everyone be super stealthed? Of course not. Will it be super annoying to people getting attacked by stealthed rogues? You bet!! But it gives rogues something to work towards and makes pvp a little more interesting. smile
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
Ah, ok. Thank you very much for the helpful explanation! So, it does work like I think it does, I just need a much, much higher level rogue with much higher level stealth skill. That's good to know!smile

That's fair enough. However, when everyone has the matching perception skill level, it's kind of like being back to square one, right?. I see the scout armor feat provides a giant boost to stealth especially at max level, would this giant boost be enough to get me close enough to attack with a longbow undetected on someone that has maxed the perception skill alone (not using any kind of perception armor feat, utility perception, or whatever might exist in game that boosts perception other than the perception skill itself)?

Words cannot describe how much I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions about the game!!smilesmile
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
To be completely hidden from sight, maps, everything and pop out of from nothing to attack an unsuspecting target. Right now, the way I see stealth is just making you harder to target sure, but they still know where you are and can still locate you on the map. To me, that's hardly attacking an unaware target because they see you on the map.

If you do disappear from the map and disappear visually with much higher stealth level, then maybe I'm just not playing the game right yet.

Thanks for the extremely quick response :o
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
After hearing more from other people regarding stealth and the lack of support regarding this issue, I've got to say I'm not as thrilled about this game as I was when I first stumbled upon it while reading up on new MMO news - as it appears that actual stealth will never happen because the majority of the current ~200 people who play and are active don't want it (For the people who responded about it, even to the negative, thanks for reading and responding! smile). That's totally fine and ok, if that is what you want, then that's cool too, but it's not for me, and I'll just move on to the next game that does have it.

I'll probably check the game out in 6-12 months or so to see how it's coming along, but I feel that this stealth issue and a few other issues do cause MMO based people to permanently leave, I'm just a lot more vocal about it. I wish you luck with the game and the development, as it does have a lot of potential.

Until stealth is fixed/upgraded/refined (whatever you want to use here), because actual stealth would be really useful, I think you're (potentially) losing out on a large MMO population base who like the stealth aspect of PVP, not just mobbing everywhere with the larger group always having the advantage. If your goal is to keep a smaller population of players, then that's cool too, and I think that's what you're going to end up having, especially with the way it's heading.

I just don't understand the issue with this, it's that way in almost every game, why would it be different in this game? I get you are trying to do something new and exciting, but some things just work. If your argument is then that this isn't every other game, then I'd have to say that there are plenty of aspects about the game that give it a unique enough feel without crippling players who like to stealth and ambush other players, so it's already not like every other game. PVP is in the game for a reason, I mean this isn't supposed to be a farmville/simcity simulator right? Simply put, stealth enhances PVP.

Even if a large group is harassing your settlement/group, it's easier to retaliate in appropriate situations with stealth and the right build (ambush their players near their settlement, etc.), especially with a smaller force, rather than just saying oh well and logging off for the night. Maybe go capture some of their bonus giving buildings/holdings/outposts/new content buildings (I don't know) that they need to keep extra player buffs and settlement buffs - that makes PVP dynamic and will get their attention at the same time.

I know that the game is still in early development, but I've been harping on about stealth for a good week and a half and not so much as a response from any game developer about it. I thought you guys [GW] were reading the forums? And I'm not talking about stealth movement speed, as you guys already addressed that, I'm referring to the ability to ambush/surprise other players with an initial attack from stealth - I understand it takes a whole lot of time to develop, but a simple response goes a long way to let me know that you hear me and you completely disagree or you hear me and it's interesting. If you are purposefully staying out of it to see what the community thinks, that's fine too, but a simple "we'll bring that up in a meeting sometime" also helps to let me not feel like the neglected stepchild in the back of the bus. If the answer is you disagree and it will never be the case, then please let me know so I can move on to the next best game. I also understand that you (may) have constraints with the content you can put in the game and other things related to the game, if you are constrained from implementing this into the game, then say so, any response is better than complete silence. I also understand you are a small team of developers, but I think 10+ days is more than enough time to have read the forum posts and give any [simple] response.

If you [GW] do respond to this post, please respond about the stealth mechanic first, I'm more interested in what you have to say about that rather than responding to my frustrations - I can just go repeatably punch a teddy bear for the frustration ( I joke smile).

Take away from my opinion what you want to, or disregard it, either way, that's cool, but I'm glad that I could at least have some very small influence in the crowd forging process of PFO.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, I'm not trying to be a D, I'm just a little frustrated smile, overall the community is pretty great and that is the saving grace right now. If you think that asking for a simple response is unreasonable, that is alright as well, I'm sure they are very busy people with a lot of stuff going on and they can't answer every little thing that comes over the forums. To that, I say they have already acknowledged that rogues are under powered, so I would assume they would be paying a little more attention to the rogue posts to get ideas about how to enhance them, as well as give simple responses of acknowledgement that they have at least read it, or at the very least, paying attention to the crowd forging posts.

Good luck with the game and the development, it was pretty cool while it lasted smile
Thanks for reading!! smilesmile
and oh, /rant smile … now where is that teddy bear..? smilesmilesmilesmilesmile
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/3284/

This is good stuff about rogues and stealth, and I just wanted to bring it into the correct thread. smile
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
Yeah, I know those threads well, sorry for getting OT. Maybe a mod can move these rogue specific posts to the other rogue post, if necessary.

Back on topic:
No, you should not be able to target a player via minimap/map.
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
Caldeathe Baequiannia
koroshiya
I see your point but what fraction of players will have that drive to cheat, much less the capability?

MMOs are competitive. While the number who would put the effort in is low, it will be larger than zero. Once one figures out how to do it, I think the number who will follow is larger than you imply. Regardless of the number, it will happen, and it is antithetical to the designer's plans.

koroshiya
My point is that it won't really influence the game outside of a handful of skirmishes for the average player. But the benefit gained is a whole new level of tactical play.
We disagree, as do the devs:

Ryan Dancey
In general, being "hidden" is an all-or-nothing proposition, where the server does not communicate any information about my position to your client, period. And when my "hidden" state ends, every client can access that information. Thus, as a game mechanic, its less than ideal and doesn't work the way people wish it would.

koroshiya
If I will never have the ability to hide my icon/character while stealthed then there's no reason for me to continue playing lol, much less any reason for there to even be a stealth skill. Seems like the mechanic of showing everyone where everyone is encourages no tactics on the battlefield if everyone can see everyone - just gather a mob of people and the civil war line style keeps on winning. Ultimately you are taking away the very thing rogues rely on by always showing everyone everything on the maps.
I can't address whether the game is worth your time, but tactics is about far, far, more than knowing where the other person is.

koroshiya
why even have rogue as a character role, since stealth is such a huge part?
Stealth makes you harder to target, and the rogue will (among other things, and hopefully) be about exploiting conditions to devastating effect.

koroshiya
I've never played the TT game and I never will, it's not my cup of tea, but I do play MMOs on a continuous basis, and the stealth mechanic is very important to me and MMO players who like PVP. And ultimately, if you want to grow your population base, the cost of a small group of people being able to hack the minimap versus not having a lot more people play because there's no tactic other than counter a counter (which is cool and all, but leaves out an entire dimension of gameplay) is worth considering.
I hope that many, many MMO players find a home in Pathfinder, but I hope it also provides a place for those, like me, who have never done so, as well as people who are looking for an MMO that is not like all other MMOs.

First of all, let me say thanks for the thoughtful response!

I'm not saying that not knowing where the other person is the only tactic, however the element of surprise is an integral part of determining the outcome of a battle, as well as, a key factor in the gameplay feel for a rogue.

Thanks for the link about the stealth mechanics. So, I still don't understand what benefits you have from being in stealth other than having a translucent character. If I do anything other than creep around at a pace comparable to a sloth crossing a road, stealth is broken. While I don't necessarily see anything wrong about that, the fact that while in that state my position is being broadcast via minimap is disheartening, and completely ruins the gameplay feel for ambushing players.

Out of all of the MMOs I've played over the near 2 decades, I have never once (to my knowledge of course) seen or heard of this issue with the client being hacked to give the position of stealthed people via a minimap and people actively screaming about it. Not to say it's never happened, but I've never run into an issue like this while playing and was made aware that someone is cheating in this way. Maybe because people find much more interesting ways to cheat, who knows, I'm just speaking from personal MMO experience.

If it's such an issue, then take the minimap and map away and just have a static map that players can use. While in game, show your current hex coordinate so you can use the static map (maybe with just your character icon on it, or no icons on it), and navigate from that.

I do understand that a ton of debate will be between the gameplay of a TT game and the feel of an MMO, but if you make the game not have any characteristics of a standard MMO, it's going to automatically turn people away from the game, the same is true of the flip side.

So, one question then: you say that rogue uses their skills to exploit conditions to devastating effect. If that's all a rogue does, what is the fundamental gameplay difference (not mechanical difference, because sure there's a mechanical difference) between a fighter and a rogue? I'll tell you what the difference should be and that is a rogue should be master of stealth.
- From the shadows.
koroshiya
If that's implemented, then I think it's fair game for people logging in.
- From the shadows.